I like your challenge here. Not sure what I think yet. We have to remember, even though it did seem like "TV", this is more than we were ever "allowed to see" from any other leader. And also, the amount of information that we the public are privy to is an iota of a grain of sand in an ocean of deception that goes back decades. So it's almost impossible for me to make any judgements at this point in time. They might know exactly what they are doing even though their methods might seem brutish.
I highly doubt this was their intention. If you watch the video, it looks like tempers flare because Vance doesn’t seem to know how to empathize with other people, whether it’s European leaders he scolds about free speech or Ukraine’s president he shouts at with indignity telling Zelenskyy he needs to say thank you, when Zelenskyy had been gracious the entire meeting.
I put almost no stock in them having any larger plan other than what we can clearly see: Trump likes autocrats and he acts like one, he surrounds himself with similar people, and their illiberal inclinations are sufficient to break the ties that have bound the postwar order. This is a terrible thing, and I’d regret it for the rest of my life if I didn’t say this clearly. Europe will now mobilize independent of the US, possibly continuing their fight with Russia in ways that can escalate especially without the US backing Europe, and if the US needs Europe’s help with China or other adversaries we will be far worse off now than we would’ve been without Trump and Vance.
My mind goes to the past 4 years. Not saying what we have is optimal, but it's better than what would have been. It's the harsh reality. I also don't disagree with your sentiments and the are so important to express, but I think in terms of bigger picture this will "work out". There will be a ceasefire and things between Russia and Ukraine will change. I have to wonder what the people of Ukraine are saying. This is what interests me most. These "leaders" often DO NOT represent the people. Speaking from experience. :)
Sadly, I must agree. JD Vance presaged this latest attack with his speech at the Munich Security Forum where he called out the Europeans for their censorship and their undemocratic firewalls. The content was not so objectionable, but the delivery was very much so.
Power goes best with humility rather than arrogance. Donald Trump is bad enough alone, but with JD Vance and Elon Musk pushing him he is unbearable. The bad they do overshadows the good.
The US trashed its reputation long before Trump came along.
"Zelenskyy presented his country’s position and desires, what he thought was the universal love of democratic values",
Ukraine is the most corrupt country in Europe, they have banned all political parties, Orthodox religion, and Russian and several other languages, and press gang civilians for the war. Zelensy had a mandate for peace with Russia that he immediately reneged on. He has not been a legitimate president for six months.
"Russia invaded Ukraine, that is a fact"
The war started in 2014, a fact stated by the head of NATO. Ukraine killed 14,000 people in the Russian speaking Donbass BEFORE 2022. Donbass declared independence (cf Kosovo). Minsk was supposed to recognise autonomy for western Ukraine. When Ukrainian forces massed on the Donbass border they asked for Russian assistance, even then Russia demurred. Merkel and Holland have stated Minsk was agreed to buy time for NATO to arm Ukraine.
The incorporation of western Ukrainian provinces into Russia followed a series of referenda, overwhelmingly supported.
No where in this article did you mention all the lies that Zelensky told. I thought the entire US delegation did extremely well maintaining their composure, and for the sake of a peaceful media conference, not calling Zelensky out on them
They ganged up on Zelensky and bullied him , what’s ironic is that the USA knew how much NATO creep was going on years before 2014 , long before Zelensky and then Obama/Biden setting up those bio weapons labs along the Russian border , it’s was the USA and NATO that broke the agreement made with Gorbachev back in the late 1980’s.. they promised not one inch of NATO would move east.. in return Russia gave back eastern Germany.. Niw NATO has crept a further 1000 miles east… thanks to the Americans..this was not Ukraines making.. they just happened to be the last country that NATO could settle in .. and Putin had enough!.. Trump is a turncoat because all he sees are dollar signs… Vance made the shitshow complete .. so much for democracy..
"the seriousness of Zelenskyy’s plea for the United States to defend democracies under attack by an autocratic Russia"?
Zelensky threatened the world with nuclear war if we didn't cough up specific dollar amounts, and when he did so, he sounded like he was extorting the parents of the girl he'd tied to the train tracks. He then "lost" the money that was given.
Where in all of that do you see seriousness?
I do have more, so please do not think that's the only thing I have to say about him.
I enrolled as I am interested in the topics of biology... This post, however, the temptation of dis-registration arises... I would never have expected a defense of a Nazi toxic elected by means of a coup of a nation that is used as a sewer for the worst things in the world... ah I forgot, your "dear" Zelensky was about to cause the third world war...
But I'm glad that you've expressed your opinions so now I know what kind of person you are... As well as all those who think like you on this topic...
PS with all respect for the clean part of the Ukrainian population, and the greatest contempt for the Nazist and pro-Nazi who infest it... and those who sympathize for them!
Brilliantly written! I have just watched and rewatched the video and have been shocked to the core at what I had seen… so you can imagine my surprise when I was reading reports of Zelensky saying this and that - when I know what I saw!!
So thank you.
I had hoped and prayed for such a wonderful outcome- but really can’t believe the pre-written pugilistic drama I witnessed - and am just so very disappointed in Trump and Vance!!! I REALLY had hoped for better from them and this makes me feel very sad for the world - no diplomacy, no kindness, no grace, no humility or compassion whatsoever!!!
Great post Alex - Thank you. Americans can stand with Ukraine - we do not have stand passive before the American Dictator masquerading as our President. We can and should do something material to help preserve freedom - here and in the Ukraine. The historian Tim Snyder, who knows Ukraine intimately has provided a couple of links today over at his substack: https://snyder.substack.com/p/five-failures-in-the-oval-office?r=8oz6&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&fbclid=IwY2xjawIvJ8RleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHRyEqgxfCcMIBQAQQNMkyW87j4wJ4TG89lIVXwB6FPY2C0Jxb3b2AYTo_A_aem_8GFpeXppRiTkZHQ2M4IJ-Q&triedRedirect=true
I like your challenge here. Not sure what I think yet. We have to remember, even though it did seem like "TV", this is more than we were ever "allowed to see" from any other leader. And also, the amount of information that we the public are privy to is an iota of a grain of sand in an ocean of deception that goes back decades. So it's almost impossible for me to make any judgements at this point in time. They might know exactly what they are doing even though their methods might seem brutish.
I highly doubt this was their intention. If you watch the video, it looks like tempers flare because Vance doesn’t seem to know how to empathize with other people, whether it’s European leaders he scolds about free speech or Ukraine’s president he shouts at with indignity telling Zelenskyy he needs to say thank you, when Zelenskyy had been gracious the entire meeting.
I put almost no stock in them having any larger plan other than what we can clearly see: Trump likes autocrats and he acts like one, he surrounds himself with similar people, and their illiberal inclinations are sufficient to break the ties that have bound the postwar order. This is a terrible thing, and I’d regret it for the rest of my life if I didn’t say this clearly. Europe will now mobilize independent of the US, possibly continuing their fight with Russia in ways that can escalate especially without the US backing Europe, and if the US needs Europe’s help with China or other adversaries we will be far worse off now than we would’ve been without Trump and Vance.
My mind goes to the past 4 years. Not saying what we have is optimal, but it's better than what would have been. It's the harsh reality. I also don't disagree with your sentiments and the are so important to express, but I think in terms of bigger picture this will "work out". There will be a ceasefire and things between Russia and Ukraine will change. I have to wonder what the people of Ukraine are saying. This is what interests me most. These "leaders" often DO NOT represent the people. Speaking from experience. :)
Well written, Alex. I wish you were wrong, but I fear, and know, you are correct.
Sadly, I must agree. JD Vance presaged this latest attack with his speech at the Munich Security Forum where he called out the Europeans for their censorship and their undemocratic firewalls. The content was not so objectionable, but the delivery was very much so.
Power goes best with humility rather than arrogance. Donald Trump is bad enough alone, but with JD Vance and Elon Musk pushing him he is unbearable. The bad they do overshadows the good.
The US trashed its reputation long before Trump came along.
"Zelenskyy presented his country’s position and desires, what he thought was the universal love of democratic values",
Ukraine is the most corrupt country in Europe, they have banned all political parties, Orthodox religion, and Russian and several other languages, and press gang civilians for the war. Zelensy had a mandate for peace with Russia that he immediately reneged on. He has not been a legitimate president for six months.
"Russia invaded Ukraine, that is a fact"
The war started in 2014, a fact stated by the head of NATO. Ukraine killed 14,000 people in the Russian speaking Donbass BEFORE 2022. Donbass declared independence (cf Kosovo). Minsk was supposed to recognise autonomy for western Ukraine. When Ukrainian forces massed on the Donbass border they asked for Russian assistance, even then Russia demurred. Merkel and Holland have stated Minsk was agreed to buy time for NATO to arm Ukraine.
The incorporation of western Ukrainian provinces into Russia followed a series of referenda, overwhelmingly supported.
Look up "not one inch east".
Ukraine has its faults, but those faults don't justify Russia's invasion. Ukraine deserves our help.
No where in this article did you mention all the lies that Zelensky told. I thought the entire US delegation did extremely well maintaining their composure, and for the sake of a peaceful media conference, not calling Zelensky out on them
They ganged up on Zelensky and bullied him , what’s ironic is that the USA knew how much NATO creep was going on years before 2014 , long before Zelensky and then Obama/Biden setting up those bio weapons labs along the Russian border , it’s was the USA and NATO that broke the agreement made with Gorbachev back in the late 1980’s.. they promised not one inch of NATO would move east.. in return Russia gave back eastern Germany.. Niw NATO has crept a further 1000 miles east… thanks to the Americans..this was not Ukraines making.. they just happened to be the last country that NATO could settle in .. and Putin had enough!.. Trump is a turncoat because all he sees are dollar signs… Vance made the shitshow complete .. so much for democracy..
Food for thought, thank you. It's good to get another side of the story than what I'm seeing from more libertarian and conservative views.
"the seriousness of Zelenskyy’s plea for the United States to defend democracies under attack by an autocratic Russia"?
Zelensky threatened the world with nuclear war if we didn't cough up specific dollar amounts, and when he did so, he sounded like he was extorting the parents of the girl he'd tied to the train tracks. He then "lost" the money that was given.
Where in all of that do you see seriousness?
I do have more, so please do not think that's the only thing I have to say about him.
I enrolled as I am interested in the topics of biology... This post, however, the temptation of dis-registration arises... I would never have expected a defense of a Nazi toxic elected by means of a coup of a nation that is used as a sewer for the worst things in the world... ah I forgot, your "dear" Zelensky was about to cause the third world war...
But I'm glad that you've expressed your opinions so now I know what kind of person you are... As well as all those who think like you on this topic...
PS with all respect for the clean part of the Ukrainian population, and the greatest contempt for the Nazist and pro-Nazi who infest it... and those who sympathize for them!
Brilliantly written! I have just watched and rewatched the video and have been shocked to the core at what I had seen… so you can imagine my surprise when I was reading reports of Zelensky saying this and that - when I know what I saw!!
So thank you.
I had hoped and prayed for such a wonderful outcome- but really can’t believe the pre-written pugilistic drama I witnessed - and am just so very disappointed in Trump and Vance!!! I REALLY had hoped for better from them and this makes me feel very sad for the world - no diplomacy, no kindness, no grace, no humility or compassion whatsoever!!!
Shame on them both!!!